Conversations with My Sisters' Keepers
TRIGGER WARNING -
THIS PODCAST CONTAINS THE STORIES & EXPERIENCES OF THOSE WITH LIVED EXPERIENCES OF GENDER-BASED VIOLENCE. CONTENT MAY BE TRIGGERING.
Welcome to "Conversations with my Sisters' Keepers," dedicated to normalizing the trauma recovery experience of survivors of complex trauma and gender-based violence (GBV). We bring awareness, share stories, and promote healing-centered conversations for lived experience professionals and allies in the gender-based violence and recovery sectors. By sharing authentic stories and experiences, we hope to break down stigma, promote understanding, and celebrate the self-discovery within healing.
Together, we’ll explore strategies, resources, and insights to support wellness, recovery, and leadership. Join us as we challenge stigma, celebrate autonomy, and normalize the healing journey.
Let’s build a community of understanding and empowerment—one conversation at a time.
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Conversations with My Sisters' Keepers
Michelle Faye's Journey: Healing, Advocacy, and Political Aspirations (Part 2)
Welcome to Conversations with My Sisters' Keepers, the podcast where we bring awareness, share stories, and promote healing-centered conversations for lived experience professionals and allies in the gender-based violence and recovery sectors.
I'm Shamin Brown, and together, we’ll explore strategies, resources, and insights to support wellness, recovery, and leadership. Join us as we challenge stigma, celebrate autonomy, and normalize the healing journey.
good morning everyone and thank you for joining us for conversations with my sister's keepers. I'm here today with our sister's keeper, michelle faye, a domestic violence and sexual assault advocate, as well as candidate for the house of representatives in the federal parliament of australia. Michelle is a passionate advocate and lived experience mentor for survivors of sexual abuse and domestic violence. With deep empathy and understanding, she provides holistic support to women on their recovery journeys. Her commitment is to walk alongside these women, empowering them with the tools and accountability needed to achieve positive, laughing outcomes and create a sustainable future. Through this work, michelle has been inspired to drive systemic change from within to achieve positive, lasting outcomes and create a sustainable future. Through this work, michelle has been inspired to drive systemic change from within, which has led to her candidacy for the House of Representatives. Determined to advocate for meaningful reforms, she is dedicated to amplifying the voices of survivors and ensuring that their needs are met at the highest levels of government. Welcome, michelle. It's so nice to have you here. How exciting.
Speaker 2:Hi, thank you for having me. I'm really excited.
Speaker 1:Conversations with my sister's keepers are crucial. For survivors and survivor leaders everywhere, it's time to advance beyond trauma informed and resilience-based narratives of surviving, thriving and leading, and to embrace a healing-centered focus on wellness and recovery. Today, we aim to challenge the stigma and judgment that many survivors encounter during their healing process. By sharing insights into our own recovery and wellness journeys, I believe we can normalize the ongoing and cyclical nature of the recovery experience.
Speaker 2:Absolutely agree. I think it's really, really important that we share so that other people actually understand that they're not the only one, and I've learned that I'm not the only one.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm, thinking about your recovery and some of the struggles there was geographic triggers, episodic triggers, circumstantial triggers, just kind of connected.
Speaker 1:One thing that I heard that stood out for me is the fear of men being rooted in like a mistrust of your own judgment, right, not feeling that you can trust yourself, so being afraid of what you might choose. I heard a couple other things there Struggles with identity, self-determination, the ability to self-advocate and feel like you really know yourself and feel confidence in your skin and then just to kind of circle back to coping. One thing that really stood out for me is when you were telling the story about driving the car, driving at night, how you're able to identify that trigger or that response and then kind of deconstruct it in your mind, untack it, look at it, reframe it no, I'm okay, right and then do some self-soothing. So this is kind of the things that I heard there in your process is like okay, I know where this is coming from, I'm not there anymore, I'm going to tell myself and remind myself that I'm safe, you know, and I'm going to face it head on. Can you think of anything else that's helped you in your recovery?
Speaker 2:Oh, wow. Well, I think one of the big things where it started for me was that I realized how important it was to be physically healthy. So in the early days I wasn't eating, I wasn't sleeping, I was consuming alcohol a lot more than I should have been, and it was that whole. And I'd never really been a drinker, and never like throughout the relationship, but have the odd social drinks here and there. But I could go two months without even having a drink and when the separation happened, I, the glass of wine, started to sort of creep in and it would be, you know, it started with, you know, every few days and I need a bottle of wine and I, I actually identified that it was like a.
Speaker 2:I need a glass of wine, like at night, you know, sitting down, and that was my justification is, oh, it's at night, with dinner, it's okay, and I kind of jumped into heaven and it was like it's just a dinner at night, wasn't like I was drinking when I woke up and that really, really crept in. So that started to happen where it was every night. So every night I was having a drink and I started to turn around and I started to go. Why am I dealing this and it was a need. It was like I'd come home from this rough day of dealing with whatever I was dealing with and I was picking up a bottle of wine and you know I wouldn't say I was drinking, you know, to excess or getting drunk every night like that, but it was enough where I went.
Speaker 2:This is a slippery slope for alcohol to soothe me and make me feel better.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 2:And it was great. I had a glass of wine and I sat outside and I calmed down and I went okay, this is okay, this is going to be okay. And I actually identified that that was actually making me feel better. And one day I woke up and went I'm not eating, I'm drinking too much. I'm not eating, I'm drinking too much, I'm not exercising, I'm not getting fresh air, I'm not getting out of bed. I'm just not getting out of bed, I'm not dealing with it today.
Speaker 2:And you know, I woke up one day and I said you know, I haven't slept all night because I'm not listening for things. And I knew at that point that I needed to get my nutrition, my physical health, physical activity, I needed to move my body and I needed to sleep properly. Things were right and I knew that. I knew that if I didn't get that stuff in line and sort that part of my life out, nothing else was ever going to happen, ever. You can't fight and you can't do these things if you're not sleeping because you're tired and other things start to happen and then, you know, the wine starts dripping. So, yeah, I woke up one day and went enough's, enough. I actually went back to the gym and I hadn't been to the gym in a long time and I decided right, that's it, I'm going to the gym, I'm going to eat healthy.
Speaker 2:I created a nice eating plan and, to you know my absolute amazement following doing the activity and then eating properly, I started to sleep better, which was really interesting. So once I got the basic elements of human life and I started to eat, we started to eat at the table again. So you know, it was really important that I went right, that's it. We're eating at the table every night. All the children, everyone. We're eating at the table every night because we need connection and we need to be having conversation. So I started with literally the basics. Once I'd done that, and I'd been doing that for a little bit, everything else was easier. I was sleeping, I was nourishing my body with the right foods, I was not eating, I was not drinking a lot of alcohol, and everything started to come together and what I realized is the effect all of that had on my mental health. So the medications that I was taking substantially improved my mental health, which enabled me to carry on the fight, and when I went back to the gym that gave me that accountability.
Speaker 2:So that was me going okay, I've got this accountability. I'm going to the gym, I'm going to Pilates, I'm doing this calendar, I'm going to the gym, I'm going to Pilates, I'm doing this stuff. And yeah, I really I'm a really firm believer in having the foundations down to enable you to build upon that. And that's where I start with my own framework that I work with, the women that I work with. The first thing we address is are you sleeping, are you eating, are you getting sunlight and are you moving?
Speaker 1:your body. Yeah, that holistic wellness is. You know, we're so stuck in westernized medicine and medicinal science that we forget that the earth has been keeping us alive a lot longer than pharmaceuticals has and our bodies are designed to be in relationship with itself, with each other, with good foods, with plants, right with animals, all within balance. But I think those are really great reminders, those lifestyle changes ensuring that you had a healthy lifestyle change and and you know the dominoes that's not had on your mental, spiritual, physical and other health it kind of connected me with me.
Speaker 2:So once I'd done all of those things and I learned what food I actually like to eat because, again, I'd been conditioned to eat as, like, a traitor ate so once I started to explore all those kind of things, it connected myself back with who I truly was. And that was actually when I kind of started to build and then I started to try new things and I started to figure out that I was, like I almost felt like a child, like I was learning. I was learning about the world and the environment, about people and about things. And you know, I'd walk, go on walks, and I'd stand at a tree and appreciate the way that the bark was on the tree, and I had never in my entire life had that feeling. I'd never stopped, so to speak, in my whole life, ever. And now, when I go places, I'm like of, like you know, I can see things around me now, and it was when I actually realized who I truly was yes, yeah, wow, finding yourself right.
Speaker 1:I think and that's true, I think, as we heal because that self-discovery is part of our healing that we are more balanced and we do start to see things we never saw before, even though they were always right in front of us. You know, this opens up yourself, I think, what tell me a little bit about your professional journey and what's helped you most in that journey?
Speaker 2:well, my professional journey was an accident and people laugh at me when I say that because I had to experience the system on my own and I didn't have a lot of support.
Speaker 2:So even in relation to my family court journey, I had to do that on my own, without a solicitor or a lawyer, without legal help, because I didn't have the funds to actually be able to afford to do that. Because I didn't have the funds to actually be able to afford to do that and he'd had some help from family members so he'd lawyer it up. And I remember thinking this is the most terrifying thing in the world. I'm about to go to court with a perpetrator that's inflicted all of these you know horrible things onto me and he's got help and I've got nothing. And I made an application for our local legal aid to get some legal aid funding and they never even responded. I followed up, no response. So here I am, a high-risk victim of domestic violence not getting a response to a legal aid application to get representation in family court to protect my children oh.
Speaker 2:Then I tried a different avenue. I'm like, okay, and I fit the criteria. So I checked it yeah, I fit the criteria. I should have been approved. Not even a response from them. And then I went, I came and tried a different avenue. I went and found a lawyer that was a legal aid lawyer. I went I'll apply through the lawyer lawyer. I went I'll apply through the lawyer. Maybe they got a little bit more ability to get that to happen.
Speaker 2:And I made that and they didn't hear back either. Yes, they made another inquiry and still nothing. So four inquiries to get me legal representation as a high-risk domestic violence victim, and I got no help at all. So I decided at that point I have no alternative here but to be my own lawyer, and it was honestly extremely frightening, but it was very empowering. So I did all of the research and I went onto all of the sites and went okay, what is it that I need to do? And it was around that time I also started my law degree, so that pushed me into doing my Bachelor of Laws and I went. You know, I started to get interested in law and it's actually quite interesting.
Speaker 2:What I did discover is that the amount of money that churns through the family court is horrifying, particularly for vulnerable people. So I had to do it all on my own. Fortunately, our resources are actually quite good for our federal and family court, so we can download kits and we can download guides and we had all these forms and I went. I'm just going to have to do it and I did, and most of our hearings are via Teams or on the phone, so we're going to do that.
Speaker 2:It's not like I'm walking into a courtroom. It's only when you get to an interim hearing or a final hearing or a compliance hearing that I'm going to have to actually turn up at a court and talk to a judge. So I was like this is going to be fine. So I kind of worked my way through it and I worked my way through the process and I did my first hearing on the phone, wrote some notes and my arguments and what I'm trying to say and I was like this is actually not bad and he had a lawyer at that time. And the benefit that I found on that very first call was that when I was asked a question by the registrar, I could answer it when the lawyer was asked a question.
Speaker 2:He couldn't answer it and I went light bulb, I can talk directly to the decision maker here. So I went. This is actually a good thing. So then I reframed this whole thing and went. I have the benefit. The benefit I have is I'm talking to the decision maker. If I had a lawyer here, I wouldn't have even heard the hearing. The lawyer there would have been there, going. I can't answer that. I'm sorry registered, but I don't have the answer. I'm going to have to go and find out. And I went. I'm at advantage. So once I'd had that first hearing, I went. I've totally got this. It empowered me. He dropped his lawyer after that because I think he realised that I was going to flow through the family court without spending a cent and he was going to be out for hundreds of thousands of dollars. And I went. If he wants to drag this out for 10 years, it doesn't matter Because it's not costing me anything. So I was like this is.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I did all of that, worked through that, I started to discover that it wasn't really that hard to go through the family court. It was about having the knowledge. And then I had met a new friend. She had come to me and gone and I just met her within weeks and I told my story and she said I'm actually going through something quite similar. I'm not in the family court, but I'm in a relationship and this is happening and you know, and I was supporting her through that. So there was there was domestic violence involved and you know I was trying to support her through that and the police being involved. And in this moment I said to her she had come to me and she had bruises on her and I went I'm going to be really tough here. I said if you don't report this and get an intervention order. I said I'm going to make a report Because I'd done an assessment. So I knew that she was safe enough to make that report because it was only at the very early stages. It was that window of opportunity. And she said to me okay, okay. And two days later she came back and she said my sister-in-law has taken me to the police station. I've got an intervention order and I went excellent, we've gotten that in place, anyway.
Speaker 2:So she, again, restricted on funds, needed to go through family court. It wasn't a parenting matter, it was a property matter. And I was going through all of my stuff and she said to me I can't afford it, he's going to get everything. And then, with quite a large property pool, and I said no, it's not, she said he's going to lawyer up, he's going to do all this stuff. So I actually helped her and we put together an initial application, a consent order and all that kind of stuff, and he actually ended up signing it. So I was, and I went hang on a minute. She could have got to a point where she was forced to sign orders that did not benefit her because she didn't have the know-how, she didn't have the information and she didn't have the money to be able to afford a lawyer. And after that I went okay, hang on a minute, there's so many other women going through that, and that's how it started. That's exactly how it started.
Speaker 2:So I supported her through that and from that point on it was almost like I was attracting people that needed my peer support. And once that started to happen. I was like this is really significant and important, because how many of these victims and survivors are falling through these gaping holes? And from there it just word of mouth and it just blew up from there. So it was literally. I never sat there and went, I'm going to do this, it just happened.
Speaker 2:And then, obviously because I'd been to my own MP previously, so now it's, you know, writing a letter to an MP, to a minister easy, easy, so yeah. But I think part of the thing that I do and what's really important is that we're expecting survivors to just get over it. Okay, you're out of the relationship, you're safe. Now it's all okay. Okay, you can just move on. It doesn't work that way because they're often dealing with so many other battles that how do you work on your wellness when you can't, when you've actually got this constant situation that's happening that you need accountability. So where my holistic framework came from is that when I've got somebody that needs help with advocacy, I throw in the wellness as well. So it's not about you know, somebody comes to me and you can see that they're having a rough couple of days. We talk about food and we talk about all that kind of stuff. So it was actually an accident that it happened, but it's very effective, very effective.
Speaker 1:A meaningful accident.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, it was, and it's amazing. So it was not sat down and sort of thought about and how's this going to work? It developed naturally, which I think is really important.
Speaker 1:And do you have a website or how do folks find you?
Speaker 2:I do have a website. It is michellefeicomau, that's just my name, and I'm also on Instagram and LinkedIn and you can just search for my name and I'll come up on both of those platforms.
Speaker 1:Okay, beautiful. Do you work with folks that are only in Australia, or what does that kind of look like for you in terms of where you're at right now?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so right now, the clients that I've had come to me have all been in Australia, but I'm not restricting that to Australia. So the program that I'm developing at the moment is a program that will be able to be rolled out globally. And the way that I've developed it is, you know, when it talks about finding support services, one of the the jobs that you'll have in doing the training as a lived experience mentor is to find your local support services. So I'm rolling it out the way where it can be rolled out anywhere, because I think we need it everywhere. And it's about I've got so many like people with lived experience come to me and go. How do I get into what you're doing? Like I don't know where to start. And that's where this program came from. And it's called her story revolution because I believe that and we can revolutionize the world without story. That's where it came.
Speaker 1:Love their own her story revolution, love it. You know. What we have actually talked about thinking about your professional journey is the little golden nugget you shared with me before we started filming. There's another little bit of an extension to this story now You're not just an advocate?
Speaker 2:Yeah, there is, so yeah. So a few weeks ago I shared my story publicly, so it went out on the news platform and following that I actually had somebody reach out to me and ask me how I would feel about running for federal parliament. And initially my initial thought went I'm not a politician. That was the first thing that came to my mind, I'm not a politician. And then, on further reflection, I decided that maybe we need more people that are real people representing the real people in federal parliament.
Speaker 2:You know, we went through an entire in Queensland, in our state. Recently we've gone through the state election and, despite the fact that we've had a serious increase in domestic violence fatalities in the last year, there was not one mention of domestic violence or sexual violence in the election and sort of. When. Hang on a minute, who is representing the survivors in parliament? Might it not be anybody? The only one person is in our State Parliament, which was the politician that I, the MP that I went to, but there's no one actually there going.
Speaker 2:Let's make these changes. We had a report that 10 years it took to implement all the changes 10 years. So I thought that I can do a lot more from the inside, having a seat at the table, and again it happened by accident. I didn't go out and pursue this. But I believe that when doors open, they open for a reason, and I just know that I've got a lot to give and a lot to share, and I know that there's not enough being done at our government level to curb domestic and sexual violence. It's just not happening. Mm-hmm, yeah, our government level to curb domestic and sexual violence.
Speaker 1:It's just not happening, mm-hmm yeah. What are some of the changes that?
Speaker 2:you hope to see made In Australia. Obviously, in most of our states they're largely responsible for domestic violence prevention and response, and I believe that we need a national standard. So I believe that every state is different. Everything that's happening is different. You know it's hit and miss, Like you could have one survivor go to the police and get a response and the next survivor don't get no response. So there's all this hit and miss going on within the system and our government continues to throw money at it. We've just announced all these millions of dollars that are going into the system. Nothing ever changes. So we're throwing money at a system that is nothing more than patchwork. It's like a patchwork quilt. Here's a hole. Throw money at it, Everyone's happy, Yay, we've got money. Nothing ever changes. So I believe that we need to create a new national standard accreditation where we can actually go. This is a standard and anything below that's not acceptable with accountability for all of our departments.
Speaker 2:You know we've got the police and we've got the courts. The courts need to start handing out harsher penalties. When you just got like a recent case, we had a woman that was assaulted in public. That was recorded. There were witnesses. She was assaulted by her partner, chased her down and he walked away from the court with a $1,500 fine. That's got to stop. We can't keep going with these soft penalties. And you know, I'm not sure about where you are, but in Australia our police have discretion. If they don't want to charge a perpetrator, they don't have to. Sorry, that discretion needs to be removed. If that crime is committed, there needs to be charges laid every single time, because we're sending the message. We're sending the message to perpetrators that you actually may well get off.
Speaker 1:Why would you stop? Zero tolerance, zero tolerance.
Speaker 2:It's about boundaries in society, and our boundaries are that we're not going to tolerate the behavior, and the only way to do that is to tighten things up and having a national standard that you are expected to abide by, no matter what service you are. So there's nothing above them. You know even our um non-government organizations that are given funding, so they've got this funding. There's no accountability, there's no oversight. Now I know that one in particular. They've recently put out to the public that only 5% of the government funding actually supported victims. 5% of the funding. Where did that money go? This oversight? Let's be real. Unless you're running your own business, you don't care where the money actually goes at the end of the day, because you're getting paid, you're going home. We need oversight into all of these things and if we have a national standard of what's acceptable and what's not acceptable for all of the organisations in domestic violence prevention and response, it's going to make a massive improvement.
Speaker 1:Okay, I love that. I love that. You know, as you're telling your story, I'm thinking about my own as someone with lived experience in sexual exploitation, sex trafficking, etc. And many of my peers who have the same lived experience, and it never ceases to amaze me. We're looking at domestic violence and sexual assault in this case and sexual assault in this case, but when we look at sexual exploitation and sex trafficking, that is a part of the experience for many survivors of that.
Speaker 1:And when you're talking about these challenges in recovery, the identity pieces, the fear and the mistrust of your own judgment and I can relate to that on so many levels, and I know that there's so many other folks that can too, and I think that's why it's also important not necessarily to shove everything in the same box, but to be mindful and aware of the intersectionality within gender-based violence and the multiple experiences of, you know, violence that folks are experiencing.
Speaker 1:It's not just domestic violence. Sometimes, as you said, it's financial control, financial abuse, emotional abuse, psychological abuse and that emotional abuse we talked a little bit about the intermittent reinforcement and the hoovering that is a key tool for exploitation right and predators are going to use those narcissistic tools, emotionally abusive tools, such as hoovering and love bombing and smear campaigns and all of those things to exact control and be able to manipulate psychologically the behavior or, as you say, condition the behavior of the folks that they're victimizing. So I'm really grateful to just have been able to focus on that piece and really unpack it and explore it a little bit more for someone who has done so much work on understanding and supporting that recovery experience. I'm curious of two things, I think first. First, just on the topic of sexual exploitation and that intersectionality have you ran into anyone or supported anyone through your domestic violence, sexual assault advocacy that perhaps could have been identified as sexually exploited or trafficked?
Speaker 2:yes, yes, look, I've had. I actually had a recent case where a victim and I can't give too much information, but I've just reported her to ACT report and it was across two different states, so we've had to travel between states to report what had happened to her. And the other thing I think it's really important to address and it's a lot harder to address in domestic violence is that in most of the cases I deal with, there is sexual assault in domestic violence, in almost 100% of cases. Oh, wow, the difficulties that you have when you're dealing with it within a domestic relationship is having the victim to understand what's happened, having the victim to understand what's happened, having the victim to understand that even though they consented, they've usually consented through coercion, and one of the victims that I have finally had to understand this had consented to having a sexual relation with other people at the coercion of her partner.
Speaker 2:She really consented, so it was fine. So I think what's really difficult in a domestic setting is that it is almost always there sexual violence, but there's a sense of understanding and you know even my relationship. My ex-husband used to say it's not rape when you've got a marriage certificate and then at one time it wasn't.
Speaker 1:At one time it was legal for men to rape their wives and despite the fact that you know we've moved away from that way of thinking, I think it's actually ingrained in society and in the way of thinking of men. We are in a patriarchal system. There's still an entitlement to women's bodies.
Speaker 2:And I'd love to and it's not for me right now, but it will be, and it is on my agenda to educate victims about sexual assault within a domestic setting, because they honestly don't believe that it is. They don't believe it. They're like I did it. He coerced you, he forced you, he made you do that through this conditioning, and I think there's limited understanding of what that looks like in a domestic setting, and I think it's something that definitely needs to be explored. It's also something that's a lot harder to prove.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 2:So yeah, so it happens. It's very, very, very common, and the other thing that you get is victims that don't want to even raise it because a little fact, they're making it up and they were in a relationship. So is it even rape? Is it even sexual assault? But very, very and I think it's something that does need to be really looked into and at some point I'd love to go into that it's.
Speaker 1:It's very common thinking about sexual exploitation, but I feel like it kind of sets with what you're saying, too, is that there is a difference between consenting to something and choosing something.
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely, absolutely agree.
Speaker 1:When we can help people. You know survivors kind of understand the words that are holding onto those self-shaming stories. We can help them kind of understand that. You know you consented, that's okay, we get that. But if you had a choice, you know, if there was no one there with their expectations or there was no consequences to worry about, would that have been your choice?
Speaker 2:yeah, exactly exactly so it's. It's almost, yeah, it's almost 100 of the time, and usually they don't, like my clients have, some of them haven't even identified it until we actually have these conversations, and then it'll come up and I'll be like but hang on a minute and I'll kind of step back and have that conversation and I find it really sad, like I actually find that so sad because we still have this gender inequality and we still have that. That's an expectation of me. We were married, it was expected. Did you want to do that? No, but I had to because I was his wife and I think we've still got that, not only with, you know, with males and that perspective. I think even as women, we still believe that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, absolutely Well. And I think also that's that continuation of conditioning. Because we believe that, because we've been socialized to believe that We've been handed dolls at four years old, given caregiving responsibilities, we've been told in religious and other settings, when we speak our mind that we're being rude, that we're being uh, sassy if we set boundaries around our own priorities and needs. We're being selfish, right. So we're conditioned that way. Um, throughout the social, our socialization, right. So of course it's in the mind we think, oh, this is what I'm supposed to do and if I don't do this, I'm a bad woman. Air quotes right, I'm a bad woman.
Speaker 1:I'm a bad wife, I'm a bad mom, I'm bad, I don't deserve or I'm not worthy if I'm not responding to the call that society says is my duty as a woman responding to the call that society says is my duty as a woman?
Speaker 2:Absolutely, I totally agree. And you know, until we like when I'm picturing the inequality, and people always say to me well, how do you change that? It's a culture. We have to change the culture. But the issue that we've found is it's very difficult to change a culture on adults that have their fully formed views on. You know it may be through their upbringing and generations. That's really difficult to change. We need to be working on our children in education and until we develop these programs and we're working with children, and I mean in early childhood education, we're not going to change society. You can't wait till they become adults and go. I don't think that way, because they've been conditioned as well through their family, upbringings and generations for all of this time. We have to start to actually look at prevention and gender inequality is. I think in some ways it's getting worse. I always feel we've come so far. You know men in particular are starting to almost like no, we're fighting back. And I'm like you're fighting back for what?
Speaker 1:I know the other way around like you know, we came from this place where we had no rights and we were the property of men and they did everything for us, everything for us. And now we've gotten to the point where you know you're independent, you can work, you can raise your own children, and they're bantamwears. They're saying okay, I'm going to sit on the couch and do nothing. And you do it all now.
Speaker 2:I would legally agree. One of the things I've come up against professionally is this war that's going on between men and women. And look, I have a lot of male friends and I actually believe that men are a big part of the solution to this. I believe until we get men on board and men understanding what's happening here and pulling up their counterparts and actually standing up for women, we're going to continually have this problem. It's become this war between the sexes, which it should never have become. All we want is to be respected and have equal rights. And now it's at a point where I think it's almost like well, you want equal rights. We're kind of getting fought Like.
Speaker 2:Even recently in the American media, there's been calls to repeal the women being able to vote. How is that possible For the law to be changed so women can able to vote? How is that possible For the law to be changed so women can't vote again? Some of these people are like that's not helping and then obviously, as women, we're going no, that's not going to happen. So there's this big battle and this big war going on and all we need to do is try and work together. Gender-based violence shouldn't ever occur. There's not an excuse for it. Ever it shouldn't happen.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree, and yet it does, and it has for so long. Right, how do we change that? I don't know if we ever really do completely change it, in the same way that I don't know if we ever really heal from the trauma that is caused by it. Solution when we're thinking about educating youth and we're thinking about making sure that there's the right supports, changing things at a government level, you know, addressing the resources, the laws, the funding, all of those pieces they work towards creating more balance maybe not equality, but more balance. All we can do is take baby steps.
Speaker 1:Like you said took 10 years for change to happen. Right, it's at the government level. And if things are slow, years for change to happen, right, it's at the government level. I mean, things are slow. Something that stands out for me when we think about early education, as what you've said several times throughout our interview when speaking about things that you now have learned about. Right, I didn't know that was abuse, I didn't know that that was escalation, I didn't know that that was hoovering, and I think those are really important parts of education for boys and girls to be able to identify in terms of what is a healthy relationship and what's unhealthy behaviors and how do you sit down for his rage, instead of making the assumption that education is happening at home, because that assumption puts our future generations at risk.
Speaker 1:I'm curious puts our future generations at risk, absolutely. What advice would you give to organizations that work with survivor?
Speaker 2:leaders. Oh, respect their opinion, listen to them. Listen because I, you know, when I first fell into this journey, I actually started looking for a course to do or something to do to. You know, I need a course and I need to have more knowledge and when I started to go through and read things and read books and read, I knew a lot of it. A lot of it I knew because I experienced it.
Speaker 2:You know, I feel like what I went through was like an apprenticeship textbook, academic education.
Speaker 2:So I think that it's really, really important that we work together, because working together, there's different views and I know full well that unless you've been through what we've been through, you can't have the same level of understanding. I think there's a place for both and I think organizations need to work together and respect the fact that survivors they've actually been through an apprenticeship and I call it life's apprenticeship and I call it that I did it for 20 years. I have knowledge and I think that respect needs to. They need to respect that. And you know, when I did start looking for a course and I was like I know all this stuff. I actually know that and I know that and I know that someone got all that information, and I'm not saying that I wouldn't have learned more from doing that, but I did know that I had enough to offer the support that I offer and I'd love to, I'd love to see organisations working together, academics, lived experience working, sitting at the same table, absolutely.
Speaker 2:I always see boards come up and they're like we've got a new board and we're having discussions about laws in domestic violence and sexual abuse. And then you know they read the panel out and you go okay, there's eight academics and one lived experience, and you're lucky if you have that experience. So my advice is listen to them, because they know a lot more than you think that they know.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Very true, I like what you said. It just really resounded with me. Yeah, I remember that when I was in university. I remember looking at things like you know, strength-based theory, solution-focused, you know treatment, those types of things. What was striking to me is that a lot of what I was reading were things that I already believed and did and lived by. What I was reading were things that I already believed and did and lived by. So really it just it didn't really teach me how to do or be that. It just taught me how to explain to other people what I was being and doing. Right, it gave me the language for who I was, but I was already that you know and in some cases I don't believe that's true.
Speaker 1:In some cases I believe that your education is what equips you. You know, and then, in the absence of lived experience, your professional experience and the mistakes you make along the way will also teach you. We have the benefit of having that experience backwards We've lived it. Backwards, we've lived it. Therefore, we know what surfaces for people, emotionally and otherwise, in recovery. We understand the feelings that come with that in a very real, internalized way. But we also, you know, remember how scary it was, how hard it was to connect people with people, how hard it was to tell our story and feel safe, that mistrust of self. So we're able to really come into those relationships with a different kind of compassion and different kind of connection that others, you know, may not be able to, not because they're not equipped, because we don't want to say that.
Speaker 1:There's fabulous, fabulous, non-lived experience advocates out there who are emotionally grounded and have incredible organizational and other skills that many trauma survivors, because of the impact of trauma on their brain, can't access for themselves. Right, and so I think exactly what you're saying. There's a great balance there. But I just, I just love that whole. You know, when we go into school with lived experience and we're like I already know this right because we did learn it yeah, we did, we did learn it.
Speaker 2:We learned it a different way, and that's all. And you know, I think too for me. I feel that that lived experience has given me a bit of out-of-the-box thinking. So, rather than that textbook rigid dips is what you do I don't have that. I've got that out-of-the-box thinking where I can go well, hang on a minute and be a little bit more abstract. So I think it's really, really both of those sides yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:What advice would you give to other survivor leaders?
Speaker 2:Oh, wow, yeah, Go for it, just do it, because I think what I come up against and now that I'm going into training survivor leaders is that there's that I'm not good enough. I think it's coming up. One of the most common things that I hear is I don't know enough, I'm not good enough. I think it's coming up. One of the most common things that I hear is I don't know enough, I'm not credible enough, I don't have enough. You really do, you really are, you are all of that. So I think it's about getting out of your own way. Get out of your own way and just do it, because the help that you can give others is you can't even measure it, you can't, can't measure it. So I say go for it, step out of your own way. You are credible, you do have the ability and you can make change believe in yourself, you can and recruit.
Speaker 2:You can admit, I look at my journey and I couldn't have dreamt where I'm at now. I couldn't have created. I followed and I picked them up and I said yes. And that was another thing too, is what kind of really spurred my journey on is that a couple of months ago, I was going through my own sort of self-doubt and I went to a. I'm actually I do dancing. So I went to a dance retreat and we were on our dance retreat for the weekend and in that they have a confidence coach there. You know me being me, I'm sweet, I'm doing really well.
Speaker 2:And she said to me and I was still actually working full-time in education and she said to me why are you doing that? And I said, doing what? And she goes like continuing with your day job and like I was effectively doing two jobs. I was working 14 hours a day between my two jobs and I said, oh, you know, I don't think I'm quite ready and I don't think I'm, you know, ready to you know, do all that, and I don't think I could do it. And she turned around and went yes, you can. And I was like no, I can't. She goes yeah, stop saying no, stop saying no, stop saying not now, stop saying not yet, stop doing that. She said you need to do this and I walked into work two days later and resigned.
Speaker 2:What, wow, having that person look at the fact that I was in my own way. I resigned. I resigned from my job and I exceeded my expectations. I'm now running for the federal parliament and running a successful business and creating a program to help others with lived experience to be able to do what I'm doing and advocate for change. We need thousands of me out there doing the same thing, and that's what this program is, and it was about getting out of my own way. So what I can say is, if you're having that self-doubt, get out of your own way, because the only thing stopping you is you. I love that, yeah.
Speaker 1:Going back to Her Story, Revolution. Is that the name of the program or the name of your website?
Speaker 2:Okay, so underneath my website so it's the name of the program and there is a bit to Her Story, revolution, there's not a lot on it at the moment.
Speaker 2:I'm expecting to have the first lot out in the next few weeks and it basically consists of two manuals. And the first manual is about setting up as a business and credibility and giving all that kind of stuff and how to become a speaker and writing your story and doing all that kind of stuff and how to use social media effectively and all that kind of stuff. So it's all around based around business. And you know that came quite easy to me because I've been in business for 20 years, so that stuff was quite easy to me. But I feel like that's one of the biggest problems that people going into this space struggle with is even technology. You know it's about. You know having to set up employments and using Zoom and all that kind of stuff. A lot of people struggle with all of that. So that manual's around the business kind of stuff creating relationships with the media and how to get, you know, build those relationships, because I'm big on building relationships rather than being opportunistic, so I've got really great relationships and how to build that network. And then the second manual is about actually doing the work with the survivors, and it comes back to everything from identity, self-confidence, nutrition, health all of that stuff is in there, along with, you know, the advocacy and actually teaching women to actually advocate for themselves. I will send letters, don't get me wrong when it fails, but I always teach them to do it for themselves because it's a skill that they're going to need for the rest of their lives, no matter where they go.
Speaker 2:So that second manual is about being practical and about finances and about getting debt relief and things that people often don't know and people don't even understand. It's about doing risk assessments. I always get additional help for that, so it's about not trying to do it all on your own. It's about navigating the system. So, like with most of my clients, they've got other people that they're seeing as well, that I've sort of helped them facilitate. So they've got counselors and they're still hooked up with the not-for-profit support services and all of those people. I never, ever take on a client that hasn't got the additional supports or that refuses to have those additional supports because it takes a team of people.
Speaker 2:So it's about teaching that and you know it had previously just all been in my head and I can sort of have a conversation with somebody and go, yeah, we need to do that, we need to do that, we need to do that. But what I realized was that that was a skill that I had and it was a more was probably more of a character trait that I had. So it's now down in paper. It's like a little textbook format so people can read through it and go, oh, and it's going to be light bulb moments for some people and you know, like activities in there as an advocate, and recently I had an argument with a sergeant in a police station, so that kind of stuff is about how do you deal with that?
Speaker 2:How do you deal with that when, when you know the survivor's rights aren't being upheld, how do you have those conversations? And for me and it's come quite naturally to me, but I did discover that it doesn't to everybody so I've had a lot of people reach out and go how do you do what you do? And that's yeah. So now I'm creating this manual to explain all the little secrets. That should never be a secret and I want to get it out there to everybody and I've written it in a format where it's not just for Australia as I said, it will be something that's transferable to other communities.
Speaker 1:Um, I wanted to know who's helped you create it or, quite you know, do you have any partners, or not necessarily official partners but is there any support there that's contributing to the work that you're doing, and where in hell will you offer it?
Speaker 2:So I've got quite a big network of people in all different walks other advocates, counsellors. I've had sort of those collaborations with people that have assisted in actually developing the program. But also I've got the voices of survivors, which I think is the most important, because I didn't experience every system. I mean, I had no issues with the emotional health, those kind of things, but some of my clients did. So I've gone back to them to sort of go okay, well, how did you find that experience? So I've drawn a lot on lived experience, but also on professionals in mental health.
Speaker 2:It will be released on my website shortly. I am only going to be selling this product to those that are interviewed by me, because I just want to make sure that it's going into the right hands. I want to avoid people purchasing this pack of resources as a way to make quick money, so it is only for those with lived experience. I won't be selling it for any other purpose and every person will be vetted by me to ensure that they've actually gone through their own journey of healing and that they're in a position to help other people, because if they're not in a position in the healing journey where they're able to help other people, they may do damage, but in those cases I am offering to assist them to get that help in their healing journey, to get to that point.
Speaker 2:Now, the other benefit to this incredible program is that so many of our survivors have come out of these relationships and they've been financially decimated, so it gives an avenue to be able to help people live a purpose, draw on their lived experience and make an income.
Speaker 1:Have you decided on a price point for this?
Speaker 2:Oh, look, okay, so there's going to be different levels. Because I want to get it out there, I've elected to sell it as a pack and then if people want me to coach them through it, then I will do the it out there. I've elected to sell it as a pack and then if people want me to coach them through it, then I will do the coaching with them. It's a physical box, so it's a box, and I'm calling it the business in a box, because this will actually enable everything that's in here is literally you read it, you go through it, you and I'm offering support so they can contact me for support. I'm looking at around $600 Australian, which is not a lot, because I just want to get it out there. My intention is to have thousands and thousands and thousands of people with this, and it's not just for people that want to commence a business, it's for people that may want to volunteer in the sector.
Speaker 1:Some empowering work. Yeah, so, elle, on that topic. Topic, actually. Great lead-in to the next question, almost the last question is there a message of encouragement or guidance that you wish to leave for the survivors who are still fairly early in their recovery journey?
Speaker 2:don't give up. Don't give up. The amount of times I hear from people I'm ready to give up, it's it gives me goosebumps. It is really messy, the journey is messy, but you're not going to be here forever. You're just not. You need to do the work and those early stages. They are really hard. It is really hard to get out of bed some days and it is really hard to put one foot in front of the other. But don't give up, because it is a short blip in your life to where you're going to end up, when you've got through this healing journey and you're living your life to your purpose, which is where you need to be. Don't give up. Don't give up, keep going, keep going, keep going.
Speaker 1:The world needs you. Keep going, love it, love it, love it, love it. We're moving into our final question Are you ready? This seems to be a difficult one for people. You only get to choose one person. If you were to think of someone who does not have lived experience that has impacted you and your, your experience meaningfully, he's someone you just want to give a shout out to, bringing awareness to the work that they do and um the how good their relationship with survivors is. Who would that person be?
Speaker 2:and what's the hard question? Because? And why I think it's so hard, is because most of the people that I'm associated with are lived experience, so I think it's a really difficult question for me to answer. Uh, wow, I actually don't know. I actually don't know that I can answer it, because even me thinking right now of the people that have impacted me, probably actually you know what, if and it's not, this is a personal thing, it's not somebody that's, I suppose, impacting multiple people, but they've certainly impacted me and my children is my mum.
Speaker 1:I love that.
Speaker 2:It's my mum, because she believes me from the beginning she understands from the beginning. She's been there throughout absolutely everything. My mum, my mum, she's been amazing and she's been here for me, the children, and, yeah, she's been here for me, the children, and, yeah, she's amazing, rooting for you. I love that Love that I mean. Even the MP that I went to for help had lived experience.
Speaker 1:Wow, because I was wondering about that. I was thinking I bet you she's going to say that MP that made the world move in half an hour and you didn't. And I thought interesting.
Speaker 2:And I wish she had lived experience. She had lived experience and I thought interesting and I would have said that she had lived experience. I will give a shout out to the first and only real police officer that ever did anything and that was the detective that was on my case and he was incredible and without him it wouldn't have got through the criminal system. Because when it finally got to him, after the MP did her bit and I'd seen 10 to 15 police officers and they just ignored me and nothing happened. He called me and said something's wrong in your case. Can you come and see me? And he was actually the person that investigated, laid the charges and that's why we're in the criminal system. He so he was the reason why my perpetrator was held accountable and he was the reason why my perpetrator was held accountable and he was absolutely amazing and not even from the angle of just policing. He was empathetic and he was caring and you could see he cared about what was happening.
Speaker 1:So yeah, you know who you are. Yeah, that's right. Oh, that was amazing. Thank you so much, michelle. I am just so honored that you took time to share your story with us and, of course, impressed by how powerful, how brilliant, how passionate you are. I often have these conversations and start to feel really insecure, but I am like, yeah, I'm one of your fans. I really want to see the work that you're doing, you know, be successful and reach all, all the people. All the things change those systems. My understanding is that peer work is new in australia and you're kind of you're. You're breaking some ceilings, you're trendsetting and you're doing a great job. Right, you're making a real difference.
Speaker 1:You've got a national campaign. You've been encouraged to apply or become a candidate for the host of representatives. That says a lot about the work that you're doing for your community.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much and thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1:It's been amazing, this was our sister's keeper, michelle hey, and we are so happy to have had a moment of her time. Check out her website at michellefayecomau and all the things she's doing with her story revelation, the business in a box and the national campaign that she's launched. Thanks so much, everyone. This is Real Women, real Lives, real Talk. Thank you for joining Casual Conversations with our Sisters Keepers. Until next time.
